FreeSoftwareVSMicrosoft

Now that I've been using Free Software and Open Source Operating Systems on and off for about a year or so I have concluded that it is for the best that I return to Windows.

While Free Software seems like a good idea at first; it became increasingly clear to me that the movement is going to fail. There are too many things standing up against it. Copyright laws, software patents, smear campaigns, the list goes on. To be frank the lack of professionalism is without a doubt the most annoying aspect of this pseudo community.

So this is the last post I will be making because doing the math I can't come up with a single good reason to choose Free Software over Windows.

I used to feel guilty using Free Software without contributing, but not anymore. The cost of contributing is more than the cost of Windows. I can buy a new version of Windows off a Wal*Mart shelf for less money than a year of donating to Free Software.

I can still us Dynbolic for multimedia editing and Open Office for my office suit. Nothing says I have to contribute to Free Software to use it. Why not milk what little this movement is good for while it lasts?

I can use GIMP for image editing, Open Office for my office suit, Pidgin for my Instant Messenger, Thunderbird for my E-Mail, Firefox for my Web Browser, Dynbolic for my media editing. Then I can turn around and play DVDs, play MP3s, play Blue-Rays and HDVDs once I get players, play my proprietary computer games like Starcraft, play my console games, and run windows where I have 3D graphics and sounds. I can even use Clam Anti virus for Windows to keep it safe.

There is no reason I can't live in proprietary land, and leech off of Free Software; and thus enjoy the best computing has to offer by combining both sides and getting the best of both worlds. The only reason I can think of is some foolhardy and childing commitment to freedom in software that isn't going to fly in this cooperate world and who's members have no sense of professionalism.

Free Software operating systems are not easy to use. People yell at you when you try to get help. Then they insult you when you point out what they're doing. This movements is immature and deserves to fail.

I can be treated like crap by Free Software of be treated like crap by Microsoft. I can fallow the zealous Richard Stallman or fallow the zealous Bill Gates. They're both the same; two sides of one coin. They are each other's Yin and Yang. There is no reason I can't run and support proprietary while at the same time milk and plunder Free Software. To be honest, I don't even have to support proprietary to use it. That's one of those nice things. Proprietary doesn't demand a social and political stance. It doesn't demand all this pain in the ass activism. It doesn't demand that you even really like or support it. It just wants you to buy it.

I can pay $120.00 a year to Free Software in donations and get a crippled computer, headaches, and bitched at by pompous ingrates who don't understand how to have an intellectual conversation and or polite service to the public.

Or, I can pay about $100.00 or less for Windows XP. With this I get a computer that works, professional service, and anything I could ever want on my computer and working in all of thirty seconds. And still milk Free Software to cut corners so I don't have to spend more money on MS Office.

So, in the long run and all things considered; I get a computer that is cheaper, more functional, professional service, and get the pain in the ass activism and social awareness burden off my shoulders.

The average consumer, who decides you're fate and they funnel more and more power to Microsoft through sells won't put up with trying for three weeks to get ingrates to get their sound of for them when they can get sound up themselves on Microsoft in thirty second by hitting next, agree, next, next.

They don't care they're signing their freedoms away. They care they don't have to deal with pompous hackers who look down on them; and they're sound works easy, fast, and they had service with a smile if they needed help.

This is just one example. This community is awful about helping people in a respectful way. Free Software and Open Source both fall to this.

So all the seemingly pretty ideas in Free Software and Free Society aside, and looking at the movement, it's achievements, and its people for what they are; I have made my decision.

I'm going back to Windows. This is my last topic and post here. And I will milk the efforts of Free Software for all they are worth until Microsoft and big business makes you illegal and drives you out of town.

I get respect, ease, speed, pay less money, and get service with a smile. All things I do not get here. Aside from idealism; of which isn't really worth anything, I don't loose anything in this switch and gain the whole of the computer's power.

So, thanks for nothing and good bye.

I am sorry you feel this way brother. If you feel the free software community has let you down that is very unfortunate because I would have been more than happy to help you and still offer any free support you may need. You do not have to donate money or develop software to support the free software movement, just being part of our community means a lot. There will be bad apples in every community, the free software community really does care about users freedom and welfare. Prophetic.boy you need to refer to the individuals that were unprofessional and not group or stereotype everyone. We gNewSense community would hate to lose a member from our already small but growing minority. If you feel comfortable asking for support or help here you are more than welcome join me at me at my home page at gnuwatch.com

Here is a list of those who have been Unprofessional and those who have been helpful in regards to the sound issue. I remember a post made by someone who was unprofessional, but can no longer find it. So, it was likely deleted before my self imposed week long post restriction ran out. I could not find it to verify but it was along the same lines as far as attitude. I also knew someone in school somewhat well who first informed me of such things who was either Free Software or Open Source and had a bad attitude. However, someone else had a good one. But I can not easily hold what might have been deleted against people. Though I might not be able to find it, or might have dreamed it. I have a lot of things going on in my right now and things I work on a lot end up in my dreams. Anyway, nor can I hold people I know in person against this board. I can, however, hold documented comments, which I will be documenting more closely; against members who have made them.

I usually have a policy of not naming names because I don't like feeling like I am a rat. I also usually don't like to go back on my word. So, I'm somewhat of a hypocrite for staying here at all. It just feels that every time I'm sure the few bad apples have spoiled the bunch someone else comes along to tip the scales for the side of good. And, in all of good conscience, I feel bad leaving in a bad way because of these people who have an earnist and honest commitment to Free Software and professionalism.

I feel divided, half and half, on whether or not I think this movement stands a chance. I feel divided fifty fifty on whether or not I think the bulk of people for this movement are professional or not. And, coming from a proprietary background and world, I and sitting on the fence as to whether or not to just go back to things the way I knew them or keep pushing ahead on this path. I feel like I am halfway down a snowy road. Part of my wants to just screw the trip, turn around, and go back home to what's familiar. Another part wants to keep pushing ahead to see if where I'm heading is really where I want to going. Now I feel like I've pulled over and I'm pulling out a notepad and a pen and doing a pro and con list that is ending up almost 50 50. So, for now, I suppose I'm continue on here on this board and continue on in trying to make a decision.

I am still a week into my new job, still a week into a new car, and still trying to wrap up getting everything ready for technical school. As such, it doesn't take much to set me off and send me away. Which, at times, does seem to be the goal of some members here. To go against my usual policy and begin naming names; I ask that they be delt with appropriately. I don't want them banned. I cursed multiple times over this and have been somewhat unprofessional myself. However, I don't want unprofessionalism to continue.

I have been clear in my ideas and feelings. I have been clear in my problems. I have been polite a lot of the time, thought not all. I would appreciate an apology, but don't expect it and probably won't get it. I would appreciate them being reprimanded, though banning would be too harsh. Though, I'm not sure anything said will do any good.

I feel like I'm at school again. Someone picks on me I have one of three choices. A: Don't tell anyone, stay there, and feel miserable. B: Run and tell, "teacher," which brands me as a rat and tattle tail. At which point if I stay, regardless of what is said and or done by authority, the hazing will likely only continue or now get worse. C: I pack up, and go somewhere where I don't have to deal with this.

People at my college harassed me a lot. I didn't tell anyone or do anything. I didn't because I knew it would only make things worse. I never had any proof. So, what am I going to say, "So and so is picking on me?" You can't do much without video and or audio evidence now days. At least here I can archive what people say. Needless to say, this is one of the reasons I'm not going back to college and going to technical school instead. I won't have to live in the dorms and I won't have to feel like crap every day of my life. If the negativity is how some of you are going to treat new and clueless people, don't be surprised if some of the new and clueless people go away from the Free Software movement.

List of those Unprofessional Toward Me cmsimon

Example 1 — 24 June 2008, 00:59

"gNewSense is the most powerful Free Software Operating System as far as horse power is concerned." --we aren't concerned about "power" at all; we are concerned about freedom. "it is a purified version of Ubuntu. Which is considered the most user friendly and popular Desktop distribution of GNU Linux Operating Systems." --please don't speak for what others consider, let them speak for themselves. "However, somewhere along the line, there formed a problem in gNewSense." --care to be more vague? "The problem has become clear that gNewSense has taken it upon itself to decide what is Free Software and what is not." --nope. "They clear in their rhetoric that the choices they make are universal in the Free Software movement and that the only reason that other systems have not fallowed suit is because they just haven't gotten around to fighting for freedom as fast as gNewSense has." --this is an example of clear and utter babbling; in your world of gumdrop houses and faery women w/daffodil sceptres, maybe. "There are two problems here. The first is what seems to be a growing narcissism in the gNewSense community that they are somehow the forefront and pioneering Free Software Operating System that explores, upholds, and strives for freedom quicker and better than their peers." --you ought to take Haloperidol. ... for the readers of this forum, the entire post is nonsensical warped perversion; pay no attention to it. --cms

Example 2

 — 24 June 2008, 13:14

talk about cutting loose dead-weight.

kgoetz

Example 3 — 24 June 2008, 12:01

Cry me a river. You don't have the decency to use a name on the forums so we can talk /to/ you. I asked you for some of the things that caused problems for you, community/documentation wise. you had (anther) petty rant (the contents of which I'll ignore here)

List of those Helpful petercstevenson brunomiguel gnuwatch

Hello Prophetic.boy. Good you did not left yet. I do not know why some people here threat you like that, but if the Gnewsense community is like them i neither want to stay.

I too got a free sound card that stopped working after the update. I wondered why, because it is in the list of free sound cards.

Hello. After following this for a while, I really think you need to chill out. With "dead weight" and "cry me a river" I can start to see your point but the list of responses to what you said was simply that. You wrongly assumed that gNewSense decides what is free and what is not when really that is up to the Free Software Foundation. Also, about the module being ubuntu-specific was something that I was not aware of. You should thank cmsimon for pointing that out. That was something that confused me and I am happy to know that there is good reason for it to hit gNewSense harder than other free distros. Being corrected isn't something to complain about.

You are also long-winded, which makes it hard to follow you and I think let's you say things that you think are true but you have no evidence of. Next time you are going to post, stop and re-read what you have written and see if it really makes sense. See if you can point to real evidence for what you are saying. If not, you need to be able to accept that maybe you got it wrong and even if you still think you're right, be able to take correction when it comes.

By the way, the only very offensive language I see is from you. If you are going to criticize the way we speak to you, please be kinder to us.

I want to start by saying thanks for being clear and taking the time to post. Prophetic.boy I read the comments made and I agree with you they were unprofessional, but there will always be people like that in every community you go to even a proprietary one. Lets talk about the software issues now. Truthfully with with out a bias free software is the future. Its market share is rapidly growing because the fosters sharing and community. I watched a international summit where there was a discussion on which model to adopt in Asia and they favored free software because the philosophy behind it and it is the future. In the free software community you do not have to donate anything you can be a free software user. Ultimately to give back is great and you are doing that by donating your time and posting and being part of the gNewSense community. You should never leave your home because you have insects just use pesticide. I have solutions to resolve your gNewSense hardware issues, just send me an email from my home page if you are interested http://gnuwatch.com

Trolls trolling trollish trolls trolling down to trollville to ride the great Troll God's trolltrain to hell.

Being long is not bad, it means that I am detailed. Many of the things I said were true; and thus I were assuming about were corrected for me and I thanked those who corrected them. I don't often cite sources when writing here because it's hard to remember who I got what from when there are so many people contributing.

In fact, the first response I got that was professional, detailed, and clear; I thanked. It was from petercstevenson on 23 June 2008, 19:27. I thanked him on

— 23 June 2008, 21:44

"Thank you for promptly and professionally addressing my concerns. There are a lot of questions that I have about Free Software and it seems that with so few people currently working on things that my questions often take a while to get answered. I don't mind waiting, I just don't like feeling like I've been ran in circles and brushed off."

I have realized in watching some of the videos from gnuwatch's site that there apparently used to be something along the lines of what I'm looking for. Cygnus Solutions, from what I gathered from how the video described it, was a place where people could call in and pay for handholding services and get questions answered.

I don't mean to be insulting, and I don't know a non-insulting way of saying it, but I really would like to find a handholding service for Free Software. After watching the video, I tried looking up Cygnus, but it has apparently been swallowed up by Red Hat.

Is it unethical to call handholding services from Open Source and not Free Software companies to get help with Free Software? If so, are there any Free Software only services that have not been swallowed up by Open Source? I am a Computer User and Computer Lover, but am really not yet a Hacker or a Guru. As such, I have never had the greatest of faith in the community model of help seeking.

While the community model does indeed seem the best for development purposes; trying to get help from it is frustrating. I often run into the walls of unfriendly and unempathizing hackers who learned everything themselves and expect everyone else interested to do the same. Or, I simply get belittled for my lack of knowledge in general. Or, sometimes, I do get friendly and useful help.

I have taken Japanese for three years in High School. Years one and two I go good to great grades because the teacher taught us. In Japanese three, she didn't. The school combined Japanese two and three together and the teacher taught Japanese two. Japanese three was given assignments and a text book. We were then sent out into the common area between the classes, the pods, and left to figure it ourselves. I expected my class to give me a teacher. When my teacher was taken away from me, I had to keep pestering all the other kids in class who were already good with Japanese and knew how to teach themselves. I tried looking at the text book. But, just like almost every textbook I have ever read, it was written in terms that did not make sense to people not already familiar with the material. So there was I, with a book that made no sense to me, no teacher, and all the other students mad at me because they got tired of being my teacher. When I learn something new to me, sometimes I need a teacher. Sometimes I'm not good at learning something completely new on my own. So, I got my Mom to go yell at the teacher and Principal for not teaching me. Then they let me pass the class, albeit with a very low grade.

I used the above example because that's how I feel here in Free Software trying to get help from the community. I feel like I'm immersed in a whole new world, with unfamiliar readings, there is no teacher, and a lot of people here are getting tired of me expecting them to be my teacher. As such, I get frustrated because I still can't get done what I need to get done.

But I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette every time I post a question. Will I get help, insulted, or belittled? Who knows? Where if I were to contact a professional company set up to address such concerns, the person on the other line would have no choice but to be polite and helpful, lest he or she losses a job. I feel a lot safer and a lot more satisfied under a business model for help than under a community model.

I was trying to treat the community as a handholding service and found out it isn't. I was expecting 100% professionalism 100% of the time, did not get it, and got rather angry when my needs were not met and I ran into unprofessionalism. Then I found out the handholding service the video talked about no longer exists on its own.

As for the sound problem, I will take gnuwatch's advice and e-mail him or her, I'm not sure witch and don't want to assume, and try to resolve it that way.

I am still deciding where I stand on Free Software. I still have far too many questions about it to make an honest decision. Most of my questions are ethical right now, not technical.

It does seem that half and half of the community is professional and nice, maybe a little bit more now are swinging to the good side. One thing I found in doing this is how many more people keep coming out of the woodwork with the same frustration I'm having. So, apparently I'm not alone.

As for my own language. I did apologize in one of my previous posts for it. In fact, that is one of the reasons I asked that the others not be banned. I got mad about how I was being treated, and to be frank, using angry words back was not professional.

My assumptions were not completely without merit. And, to be honest, I got answers to questions very clearly by making them. That's a technique for getting prompt results. It may not be the best, but it sometimes works. Ask questions, but turn them into statements. That way people take them more seriously, and are more apt to respond more clearly and more quickly.

For example, one could ask, "Does the X-Box or Wii have a better processor?" That will only get a lukewarm response. Saying, "The Wii clearly has a far better processor." That ruffles feathers and gets people defensive about what they love and respect. As such, you get far more passionate, detailed, concise, and prompt answers.

That's why I stated my assumptions as facts. They seemed like they had a 50 50 chance of being fact. And if they were not, it would still get more clearer answers a lot faster. And it did. And I thanked the person for them. I guess this method of information retrieval is not forthright, and thus not really nice. I'm sorry. I just find this technique to work well in other places on the net. So when I felt I was getting the run around I thought the best way to get answers was to kick up some dirt.

Anyway, I am no longer made at Free Software. And I am somewhere between medium and leaning to good with this community for this Operating System.

In watching some of the videos from gnuwatch's site, I have learned that I still have a lot to learn about Free Software. And that maybe a year of studying and using it isn't enough to be making the comments about it that I have been. I still need to understand more things before I can better speak on its behalf and better know where I stand exactly.

Anyway, thank you for your patients and help for those who have given it provisionally.

I also noticed the post by Meglo, but I am not sure who Meglo is insulting, I'm assuming me? I think he's calling me a troll. But, that's probably true considering the last so many topics I've started in a row on the same things so I'm going to take the criticism for what it is. I think I deserve that one.

Take it easy, --not all of the new users have this hard experience with free software--. I believe only the ones that cares about it.
Just as you said. You need to learn more, before you can have a complete view of this movement.
We all need to learn more about our community, about the people behind the keyboard.
And recognize the effort that everyone here do to get us closer to a better state. Instead of hurting with words, even if they are just typed.

Cool off, and get back when you feel you're ready. If you think you're made for this huge experience.

Cheers!

Please don't return to windows

You're free to return to windows if you want to do so. You will lose control over your own computer but now you know it. I don't suggest you to give away your freedom for some technical advantages. Please don't do it.

Free software movement will win

I don't think that our movement is going to fail. All the major companies are changing their business strategies because of the free software movement. For example Nokia will release the code of its Symbian OS. They did it to fight the new wonderful libre phone called Neo Freerunner: www.openmoko.com Microsoft developed IE7 only because people started using Firefox. We're not failing. We're winning. Companies cannot ignore us anymore. I know that we have many enemies who want to take away our freedom and THIS is the reason we must keep fighting. Because we DESERVE freedom.

Someone isn't professional. SOMEONE

I know that some free software advocate lacks a professional attitude towards newbies but we are not all like that.

Partial freedom

If you use free software with a proprietary operating system you have taken a small step towards the freedom to use your computer as YOU want BUT you're not fully free. Your computer, your data, your privacy is in the hand of others,ù not yours.

Free Software operating systems ARE easy to use

It depends what you're trying to do. :) We work every day to improve user's experience and we value your feedback A LOT. ù I'm sorry if someone insulted you, that is not what we do.

Price and freedom

When you buy windows you are only buying the PERMISISON to use a software but you don't own it. If you buy it you're supporting it even if you don't want. Again I wish to excuse if someone insulted you. I understand your lack of faith in the free software movement after being insulted and left unhelped.

Could you give us another chance? Please help us to keep the magic going.

El futuro es libre.

I must confess that sometimes I have thought to abandon gNewSense, but I have not made it because task the future of my sons. Even if I must renounce, for my inability, to the sound, films et cetera. FreeSoftware against Proprietary --> the winning is: FREEDOM so... don't leave

Ciao

In response to hutchiep190 — 25 June 2008, 12:25. I have two corrections.

The first is that cmsimon did not help me. He did not point out first that the module was Ubuntu specific. This was first pointed out, in a polite and professional way, by petercstevenson — 23 June 2008, 19:27.

"The package that was taken out was an Ubuntu-specific package."

That is why I put petercstevenson on the list of those who helped me. Then I put cmsimon in the list of those unprofessional because of his posts. Please do not give him credit for a good thing he did not do.

Also; I assumed, with what appeared to be good reason, that gNewSense was usurping the right of the Free Software Foundation to decide what is Free Software and what is not. I even said the Free Software Foundation was created to decide these things. I had my misconceptions cleared politely, professionally, and thankfully with great detail by petercstevenson; in the same post cited before.

He very clearly explains both the Ubuntu Module and Firefox. For those who still harbor misconceptions, I suggest re-reading his helpful post.

Also, as for my language, I have apologized for it in — 25 June 2008, 04:43

"I cursed multiple times over this and have been somewhat unprofessional myself. However, I don't want unprofessionalism to continue."

Yet, neither cmsimon nor kgoetz has made strains to apologize to me for their comments.

I have joined the Free Software Foundation. It's the four of July, and Freedom is on my mind a lot today. The internet, and computers, is the last free platform for mass communitcaion that is left to the people. It has to be kept free. Happy 4Th!

:)

Happy hacking!

Prophetic.boy your decision helps bring balance to the force. :)

Dear gNewSense board and all that I offended, I will try to keep this message brief as it has been made clear to me that I often get over wordy. As such, please don't consider the brevity of this message to convey any lack composure or sincerity. I mean this as a true retraction of grievances. I formally and expressly apologize for my conduct. I let my inpatients get the best of me. I acted immaturely and inappropriately. I am truly sorry, and promise to do my best going forward to educate myself appropriately about Free Software and conducting myself professionally now that I am an Associate Member of the Free Software Foundation. I should never have exacted the offending conduct in the first place. Apologizing now, and doing my best going forward is the best that I, as a human, can do. I hope that all of you accept this apology. Thank GNU.

get over yourself, your fragile-ego, the fustian slob. viva la free software. --cms.

You are entitled to your views and I will not try to dissuade you from them. This is a forum, a place for open discussion and criticism. However, in light of keeping a positive atmosphere for the community I have apologized for the words I have said. I realize that this action does not erase my words, nor does it exhume me from criticism for them. Personally, though, I would think that if you wanted to continue to criticize me you would choose to criticize my offending words and not my apology for them. If we do not forgive mistakes, and all humans by nature make mistakes, then we have no choice but to never forgive anyone and continually argue. I'd like to think we can learn to forgive each other and work for a better future together. That is why I made my apology, refuse to argue with you, and forgive you even if you don't forgive me.

groovy, baby. --cms

There are no professionals here. Almost all the guys who work on free software are volunteers. They have no obligation whatsoever to answer questions or even be polite. ... Strict? Maybe. I find it stricter to demand service and even good humor ... Though perhaps one should not type when in a bad humor, right.

But free means that: you are free to give it and free to not do so. All free software states at the very beginning there is no guarantee for anything. Noy even for being helpful, polite or ... funny!

The only good thing I can see in using privative software is that one can only use it one way and so it is a waste of time to try and use it any other way. No time to waste? No need for freedom! See?

:)

I've heard all I need to. You've cleared a lot up for me. I am leaving now. I am not angry, just found a new understanding. This is not the side of the fence I stand for. I don't want to be here anymore. Thank you for your time and helping me realize this in puting this into clear terms for me. Good bye.

I want to thank everyone here for their responses. I have decided, in part from the defenses that people have given for this concept, to continue to be an FSF member.

I could never put into words my position on Free Software. I have flipped flopped so many times that I doubt anyone will believe that I have chosen my position. I don't have the time anymore with school and other things to put into words my thanks and my point of view.

In short, Free Software is good, I know this now, I support it, you should too.

Thank you all.

In a monetary sense:

Windows system:

Windows Vista Home edition ==> 222 $ Microsof Office Full edition ===> 314.99$ Adobe Photoshop ===> 599.9 $ Nero 8 ===> 53.69 $ Microsoft Outlook ==> 87.99 $

Total of this basic system ===> 1278.58 $ = 10 x 120 $ ==> Ten years of FSF support

And in four years you must to renew your hardware again because it's old for "the new software".

gNewSense system:

gNewSense 2.01 ===> 0 $ Open Office 2.4.1 ==> 0 $ GIMP ===> 0$ Brasero CD burning ===> 0 $ Evolution e-mail client ===> 0 $

Total cost ===> 0 $

And Linux run in old hardware machine without problems.

You don't run "Linux", you run "GNU/Linux" that is the correct name of this operating system:

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html

Please help us correcting this widespread mistake. :)

arc: i could not have said it better myself; cheers.

arc:You don't run "Linux", you run "GNU/Linux" that is the correct name of this operating system

Sorry for my ignorance. I have read the link and now it's clear.

Thank's

My thoughts:

I've dabbled in GNU/Linux for several years but never stuck with it for more than a month or so. Windows works painlessly, GNU/Linux doesn't. I've considered Mac, but that's just Windows for snobs or confused but well-intentioned wannabe anti-corporate activists; it doesn't address the problem.

I'm now making a fresh attempt to move to GNU/Linux fulltime, but this time I'm going all the way with gNewSense. I expect hardship. I expect to have to give up many of my favorite aspects of computing. But I'm willing to make this big changes because free software simply must defeat proprietary software for the same reason socialism simply must defeat capitalism: it is about people rather than profits.

Capitalism is inherently exploitative and imperialistic and it must be supplanted by a democratic economy (i.e., socialism). That will never happen as long as we keep supporting capitalism. We have no choice in most areas of our lives, but where we do have a choice, we should take it, if we care about social progress.

Since I do care, and since I do have a non-capitalist software choice, I'm going to take it.

(Note to those apolitical types who feel that I've offended them: If you are an employee, you are not a capitalist. Your employer is the capitalist, and he exploits your labor to make a profit. Even if you make a great living and don't feel exploited, you are. Moreover, the first world exploits the third world to keep capitalism afloat. But this is too deep a subject to go into here and way off topic, so I'll simply encourage the curious to do some research and ignore the negative capitalist propaganda that has demonized socialism for the same reasons it demonizes free and open source software.)

Anyway, I hope you decide to come back. The cause is just, but all just causes require sacrifice, because they are up against the unjust status quo, which holds all the power cards.

I would also add, you might want to try Linspire as a compromise. It has a bunch of proprietary stuff that should allow you to do everything Windows does. Then you could slowly wean yourself from those drivers/codecs/blobs as free replacements become available. At least you'd be running GNU/Linux instead of Windows.

Give it a thought. I put it on another partition so I could use it when absolutely necessary, but for some reason it wouldn't boot after the first time, and a reinstall didn't help. So I'm going to tough it out with gNewSense. But my experience is unique, you'd probably have no trouble with Linspire, lots of people use it.

As a communist myself, it's nice to hear non-libertarian politics mentioned side-by-side with free software. :)

Ooops,

did i just pull the trigger for a flame war?

Falk': please keep your non-free recommendations to yourself; 'you might want to try Linspire'. ty. i dig yer anti-capitalism, groovy. gnufs: not at all because the two aren't mutually exclusive; i'm a libertarian socialist, from an enlightenment pov, and i'm also a "communist", they aren't isomorphic. --shalom.

cmsimon, they're pretty exclusive if you use the term in the 'traditional' manner (e.g. marxist-leninist) rather than a literal one. (I want a flame war, dammit!)

Falken, I can understand where you're coming from with your Linspire idea. (First infest, than manipulate, right?) However, i think it is against the core idea of free software to tolerate non-free software in any way (except for some very specific set of situations, which I can clearify further if there is a request).

In my opinion, proprietary software market does not fundamentally need to worry about what operating system people are using as long as it is this market force that decides what requirements and 'standarts' a 'functional system' needs to fullfill. In the end, you may hurt Microsoft but that certainly does not define the whole proprietary software market which you wouldn't obliterate but just transform. Considering that the computing is in a trend to move from your computer to the 'cloud', the result of that transformation may actually be worse than the current in-computer proprietary software situation. (This last sentence is a speculation only.) So, the only solution, I can think of, is abandoning the 'standart' mindset. The idea of "you could slowly wean yourself from those drivers/codecs/blobs as free replacements become available" brings, despite its good intention, enslavement none the less, because it ignores the market's drive to force new requirements and 'standarts'. It was this realization of mine that made me switch from debian and ubuntu to gNewSense.

we do not tolerate 'in any way' the recommendation, encouragement, etc. of non-free software on the gNS forums.

gnufs: communism and socialism are inclusive. they aren't divergent at the core but they aren't superficially monolithic. marxism and bolshevism are equally tyrannical... somehow this isn't the proper forum for this discussion. xd --shalom.

To be honest, I am more a Libertarian than anything else. I believe in small government that leaves the people alone. One that only interferes in their lives when extreme circumstance calls for it intervention. Then, after the crisis is over, releasing emergency power.

That being said, this political discussion is rather off topic. However, and I think it is worth mentioning, the idea of Free Software is rather universal. It can run under pretty much any economic and political state. As such, I see no reason for there to be a flame war over a concept that is compatible with every form of government and economy system except tyranny.

As a lover of freedom, I recommend Free Software based off of its respect for freedom.

I was only trying to keep him in the fold as much as possible. The fact is, we all compromise every day. I'd rather see him compromise with the lesser evil then give up the cause altogether. I'm well aware of the implications, but again, the implications of Windows is worse. Even RMS acknowledges that we'll be faced with dilemmas and should choose the least harmful one -- he's even recommended WinXP over Vista if that's the position you're in. But if there's a rule against discussing compromise options, so be it.

Sorry for bringing up OT political stuff. I'll simply add that I am a libertarian -- a left-libertarian, as libertarianism originally was. This notion of right-wing libertarianism is a relatively recent usurpation by the von Mises crowd. And socialism doesn't have to mean big government, that's capitalist propaganda. This is a huge issue that I'd love to discuss in a dedicated thread if it were allowed. I'll follow the lead of regulars on that.

Sorry if I've caused any trouble. It wasn't my intent.

I forgot to point out that libertarian is the opposite of authoritarian on the social-issues scale; left is opposed to right on the economic scale. See politicalcompass.org.

richard has never and will never support, promote, encourage, recommend, or advocate non-free software. you're either mistaken or grossly confused. regardless, read the gNS community guidelines, they are clearly stated. on a personal note, whatever help you think you are doing by suggesting non-free software is simply a perversion and ought to be corrected. so, again, keep the distributions of gnu/linux to free ones, please, thanks.

I didn't say he "supported, promoted, encouraged, or advocated" non-free software. That's a strawman you've erected.

RMS explicitly states in his lectures that it would be better to stick with WinXP than to downgrade (as he rightly calls it) to Vista.

All I was doing was trying to save a comrade from Windows. You sound like an ideologue who doesn't get out much. Real life requires compromise, unfortunately.

The OP doesn't HAVE to compromise of course, but he may not be as staunch as you or I. In that case, if he's going to straddle the line between free and proprietary and free software, I'd rather see him lean this way than that.

Wouldn't you? Or would you rather kick him over to the other side and be rid of him?

Also, you're the one fanning the flames here. I apologized and said I wouldn't discuss it if that's what people wish. Then you took a jab at me. Just drop it and let your ego subside.

no flames. your 'reality' is all very uninteresting. so long as you don't recommend non-free software, i'm happy. --shalom.

He means well, as do I. As anyone can see who's taken the time to recount my postings; I've went back and forth with Free Software for a while before deciding to stay with it.

I used to flame in a sort of, "Devil's Advocate," form of approval through attempts of disapproval. Ever time I found what I thought might be another hole in the Free Software ideology, I would find a new way to scream it out and see if I could get an emotional and rational response. This way I could either A: Validate the whole. Or B: Validate Free Software.

From my rantings on this board and the reactions I've got from them; I have decided to support Free Software.

There is no hole in the Free Software ideology. The only hole that exists in Free Software is that the software itself is not, as of now, up to where I and others would like it to be. But this is not a failing of Free Software. Free Software is fighting an uphill battle. And, to be honest, it is really doing a great job at it.

I continue to support the FSF both in words and as a Member because I want my contributions to help Free Software eclipse and surpass Non-Free Software quicker.

I came to the realization that although the software itself is not 100% up there, it's very close. I could have either ditched the movement and went back to Windows, or help the movement reach its goals through donations and verbal support.

I think what is most important with Free Software is to remember its potential. It will one day pass Non-Free Software by. The choice I had to make was whether or not I wanted to help it get there faster; or help those fighting against it. I decided to help it because it is a better way of doing things.

Also, just look at it. It's already close to taking off. The only real thing tangible in its way is the difficulties involving 3D; which are being worked on and are on the top of the Free Software Foundation's goals.

Once 3D is hammered out, 3D games and simulation programs will allow Free Software to be right up on par with Non-Free. Then it is really only a matter of time before Free Software sprints ahead because of its obvious benefits.

As far as politics go, Libertarian and Communitarian are different concepts. As least as far as the two dimensional political spectrum goes. "Freedom VS Order and Freedom VS Equality." As taught in a political class I had.

I use and support Free Software and recommend that others do the same.

I guess I should have said you both mean well; because you both do. I was originally referring to cmsimon however, but decided to make come back and make this correction clear as I just have.

I'm not going to get into the middle of this debate. It is best to say the fact that Free Software will eventually eclipse and surpass Non-Free. As such, we should help the best we can to encourage that this happen faster.

As said before, I use and support Free Software and recommend that others do the same.

cmsimon: Your reality is even less interesting, judging by your home page.

As long as you don't call me a liar again, I'm happy.

Most 2D political maps:

Social: libertarian to authoritarian

Economic: left to right

Communitarian would be authoritarian-left. "Authoritarian" sounds worse than it necessarily is; it means collective morality, which doesn't necessarily have to be forced. However, this is the domain of Stalin, which turns many people off.

I'm libertarian-left, which I believe represents maximum freedom. Those on the right take issue with this, because they believe, falsely, that a collectivist economy must also be forced.

Falken: yer knowledge of political philosophy and history is as deep and wide as a mud-puddle. my only concern is your recommendation of non-free software. 'I would also add, you might want to try Linspire as a compromise' --Falken. that is clear and unacceptable. keep yer compromises to yourself. this is my last post to you. adieu. --cms

You judge me by a short post meant to educate a poster who is clearly not ready for much more than what I offered.

As for you, I'd be happy to discuss politics with you at any time, in any place, and run intellectual circles around you.

I've seen your site; you are an ignorant, naive Internet revolutionary. An armchair activist. A joke, worthy only of mockery. But I'll descend to your level to cut you off at the knees if you insist.

Shouldn't we all consider what kind of comments and discussions are useful to the gNewSense user community?

One of the first things I did, when I heard of gNewSense was to read a lot of the forum articles including the ones discussing different issues of free/libre software.

I personally think it would be great if we all considered discussing in a way which makes the user community look good in the eyes of new potential users.

I'm pretty sure that not all discussions in this thread is serving this purpose.

We all feel strongly about gNewSense and a lot of issues concerning free software, but let us use our energy in a positive way.

I'm a gnu/linux user since 10 years ago, and 100% gnu/linux user since 2 years ago - there is no operative system i enjoyed so much using than gnu/linux. I really can also see gnu/linux as the most popular operative system in the next 10 years, as all computer users deserves freedom, and now, step by step, they are starting to realize it for good.

I have to agree with the post at the top of this page. Many of the other posts confirm it. I was not aware that free software is associated with communism, and it is this association which is making me reconsider my involvement.

JahDave: i'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. I cannot even begin to correct you because the two don't even remotely tie together. i suggest you examine yer thinking, starting with what it is you are doing: argument from fallacy; look up formal fallacies and you'll find it. --shalom.

I suppose it is only proper that I fix the problem I started.

As cmsimon has stated, you are not making sense JahDave.

What you have to understand is why I used the term, "communism," in the first place. The term, and this entire topic, was created to get an emotional reaction from people. I used the term because it is a fallacy and I knew that being a fallacy it would elicit a strong emotional response in defense of Free Software.

Back then, I was questioning Free Software and was not sure if it had the strength to survive criticism; logical or otherwise. Also, at the time, I was struggling with the sound problem. A problem that, in all due respects, was fixed promptly.

Sense logical criticism usually doesn't get a passionate response, I threw in fallacies to draw people out of their comfort zones. Also, I was upset and was not dealing with it responsibly.

The sound problem was fixed promptly. And, to be honest, the responses I got only served to prove to me that the concept of Free Software was powerful and enduring.

After starting my first semester at my new college, and seeing how difficult non-free software makes the world; and how handcuffed we really are with it, I achieved a new found understanding of the importance of Free Software.

Looking back, the sound problem was dealt with promptly and I apologize for my immaturity.

Also, I apologize for this topic and the many immature posts I flooded this board with. I figured, at one point, that I did the board a favor because I did bring out into the open the passion people really do have for Free Software.

However, my words obviously have had a negative affect on JahDave; and I hope that this post will make sure that others don't take my past rants seriously. I am a strong player of Devil's Advocate and sometimes don't realize that some people take me seriously when they shouldn't.

Again, I did this harm to this community and I feel that it is only right that I explain myself and apologize for it.

I flipped back and forth many times. As anyone who knows me knows, it takes me a long time to make a final decision on something important.

I have decided, and as time has already proven this is my final decision, that I am for Free Software. I continue to support the Free Software Foundation through membership. And I support Free Software in words, like I am doing here.

It is my hope that JahDave, and others like you, realize that Free Software is the way to go. And that this entire board not take my old rants seriously. That we all take from them what I took from them.

We have a strong community that knows what it stands for and is not afraid to defend it through and through. I am proud to be a member of this community and it is this strength that has proven Free Software to me.

So please, let these rants fall off the end of this board so they don't hurt it anymore. They don't deserve to be responded to anymore, and to be honest, I think we all gathered what good we can from them already. At this point they are becoming a dirty stain and need to be let go of.

I've moved on from them, and so has this board. And I hope they gained from them the good things I have.

If you want to discuss politics, make a new thread for them. But please, stop responding to this embarrassment I created. I ask that the community forgive me for my past rants, and please just let the rants die.

Thank you.

JahDave please don't take things out of context. gNewSense is about freedom if you are concerned about having too much freedom please do "reconsider your involvement" with free software.

cmsimon nice homepage, its good to see others who want to empower their community by advocating free software and freedom.

gnulogic: ty. (: