AccessingGNewSense

Having spent about a year, on and off, with gNewSense I have come to many conclusions about this operating system distribution. The first thing to understand is that the people working here do great work. From what I understand, out of the box, gNewSense is the most powerful Free Software Operating System as far as horse power is concerned. Of course, why wouldn't it be? Considering after all that it is a purified version of Ubuntu. Which is considered the most user friendly and popular Desktop distribution of GNU Linux Operating Systems. You've taken, "Linux for Human Being," and made it, "Free as in Freedom." However, somewhere along the line, there formed a problem in gNewSense.

I made mention of this before, but I was commenting on the symptom more than the problem. The problem has become clear that gNewSense has taken it upon itself to decide what is Free Software and what is not. It is recognized as and recommended as a completely Free Software Operating System by the Free Software Foundation; so it clearly met he criteria. However, so did five other GNU Linux Systems to date. The problem lies in the fact that gNewSense has taken it upon themselves to go, "above and beyond," the mandate of Free Software. They clear in their rhetoric that the choices they make are universal in the Free Software movement and that the only reason that other systems have not fallowed suit is because they just haven't gotten around to fighting for freedom as fast as gNewSense has.

There are two problems here. The first is what seems to be a growing narcissism in the gNewSense community that they are somehow the forefront and pioneering Free Software Operating System that explores, upholds, and strives for freedom quicker and better than their peers. This alarming growth in misappropriated pride will no doubt have negative consequences and generate a backlash for gNewSense. And, as they try to brand themselves as the flagship for the Free Software fleet; their arrogance will likely generate a backlash for Free Software as well. I have come to realize that it is wrong to judge a whole movement based off of the actions of but one of its camps. Others, however, especially new members to the Free Software community, might grow to be not so forgiving. Especially when you unjustifiably knock out foundational functionality out from under their systems in the name of freedom.

The second problem is that gNewSense has appointed itself above the Free Software Foundation, then hid behind the Free Software Foundation in a vain attempt to justify its actions. Richard Stallman created the Free Software Foundation for many reasons. Three key reasons that apply to this post are as fallows. One, to generate money to create Free Software. Two, to uphold the definition, and thus principles, of Free Software. And three, to define what fits the Free Software Definition and what does not. That's the whole point of licensing. If something isn't Free Software, it won't be licensed under it. That's the entire point of the page that recognizes and recommends 100% Free Software Operating Systems. If the system fails to live up to the definition of Free Software, it will not be admitted to, and if was admitted deleted from, the list. There is a specific point on this page that catches my eye. "They reject non-free applications, non-free programming platforms, non-free drivers, or non-free firmware “blobs”. If by mistake they do include any, they remove it." "If by mistake they do include any, they remove it." It repeated that sentence because it is the pivotal point of this discussion.

It is the Free Software Foundation's job to decide what is Free Software and what is not. It is their job to decide what needs to be removed, and what doesn't. The problem with gNewSense is that is likes to pretend that it's the, "Free Software Police." It is not gNewSense's job to decide what is Free Software and what is not. It was never given that right or mandate; although it likes to pretend that it has been. If Firefox and the sound module truly were infractions of Free Software, and have not been, "fixed," for so long, then by order of the Free Software Foundation they would have been removed from the list of recognized and recommended Free Software Systems. I am not trying to say gNewSense doesn't have the right to decide what to include and what not include in your own Operating System Distribution. However, you really don't have the right to generate this fallacy that your actions are mandated by the Free Software Foundation. The Free Software Foundation didn't tell you to delete the sound module or you'll be expelled from the list. The Free Software Foundation didn't tell you to delete Firefox or you'll be expelled from the list. The fact is that both Blag and Dynbolic both in their most up to date releases, with all updates made, include Firefox and support of my sound out of the box and remain on this list. I'm not sure if they are using the same module for sound, but hey may be.

The excuse that, "Other fully free distributions didn't remove that module only because we discovered it earlier," by arc is just that, an excuse. That might have cut it in colonial days, but this is the days of the Internet here people. Are we really expected to believe that these other Operating System Distributions don't know about Firefox, the sound module, and what the people here at gNewSense are doing? It's not like your actions are secret. And if the Free Software Foundation truly had a major problem with Firefox and the sound module they would demand as near instant, "fix," from these other Operating Systems on venality of expulsion from the list. It takes a handful of minutes to compile an e-mail that says, "create an update that deletes these pieces of software or you'll be expelled." And it doesn't take long to make an update that deletes something. Compliance to this demand would be expected to be near immediate, probably within a week or month for sure. Firefox and the sound module has existed far longer than a month in these other systems and they have not been expelled.

To spite the revolutionary work gNewSense does; the foundational problem here is that gNewSense has appointed itself to, "police Free Software," then hides behind the organization it is trying to usurp. It lies, and lies badly, about the conditions under witch they falsely carry out their actions. Then they chastise dissenters. Richard Stallman's dream is that Free Software will be for everyone to use. Few people cared that my sound was knocked out. I was told to, "Try reading a book," by firefly1. But the quote that captures this most is from drascus, "I am a user that wants freedom but also wants a usable computer." I got to thinking about that, and the answer is simple. You can support Freedom Software and have a usable computer, just not with a fully, "updated," gNewSense. I also noticed a good question by wpurcell, "Is loyalty to a distro applicable in this case, or is it more a case of sticking to your guns as far as free software goes?" To me, especially considering what's going on here is gNewSense, loyalty is to be placed with the Free Software Foundation. This origination was created by the creator of the Free Software Movement to decide what is Free Software and what is not. The fact is, to spite gNewSense's attempts, they were not created to make these calls. I feel like I'm at little league. No father of a player sitting up in the stands, you don't get to make the calls, the umpire does. It's the umpire's job to, not yours.

This entire situations is being handled as unprofessionally as it possibly could be. People with hardware that is 100% compatible with Free Software are loosing their sound. Those not skillful enough in computers to compile their own sound drivers are basically being given the message to sit down and shut up until the, "problem," that really isn't a problem in the first place is, "fixed." Those who criticize this are made to feel guilty, as though they are not supporting Free Software by not supporting gNewSense. Then, to top of the avarice, gNewSense spouts out lies and hides behind the Free Software Foundation; misrepresenting the organization its trying to usurp power from.

This entire circus is a complete bastardization of Stallman's dream of Free Software that is usable for everyone. If you have hardware that is 100% compatible with Free Software, it should work. If a supposed, "update," to a, "problem," that is clearly not a problem at all, "needs," to be made; it should be done in a professional manner. By deleting this module, without a mandate, you have rendered useless many Sound Cards for people using 100% Free Software compatible Sound Cards. The responsible thing to do would have been, if this was really, "needed," in the first place, to purify the module then update it when you are done. Instead of wantonly rendering useless sound for people with Free Software compatible cards; then telling those who want sound back but don't know how to compile a driver to, "read a book."

I plan to join the Free Software Foundation as an Associate Member once I get my next paycheck. I will continue to refer people to the list for completely Free Software Distributions. It is my hope that gNewSense will get their act together and start to represent Free Software right. This is getting ridiculous and I'm hoping my words here will stop this from escalating. You don't, "need," to delete anything unless the Free Software Foundation specifically tells you to. And, if you decide to delete things on your own, don't lie and hide behind the Free Software Foundation.

Thank you, have a nice day.

Thanks for bringing these issues up. They are important, and should be discussed.

I agree that the FSF should remain the main organization the defines what is or is not free software. Like you say, although gNS has the freedom to have whatever software we decide in the distribution, if we define free software differently than the FSF, then that just creates confusion. However, I'm not sure that that is really what gNS is doing. I suspect that we really are trying to stick to the FSF's guidelines. You cite two examples, firefox and linux-ubuntu-modules.

1. I shouldn't say too much about this, because I don't think I'm up to date on all the discussion that has gone into this among gNS folks. However, as far as I know, firefox has not been deleted. Although it is no longer the default browser that is installed automatically, it is available in the repos as firefox-2. Is your problem that it is not automatically installed?

2. Regarding ubuntu-modules, you're right that nothing we do is secret and that other distrubutions can easily find out about our work. Actually, I'm not sure that the reason the sound works in the other free distros is because we found the problem first. The package that was taken out was an Ubuntu-specific package. BLAG and the others are not based on Ubuntu, so they won't necessarily have the same problems that we do. It is quite unfortunate that this sound issue came up right after the gNS 2.0 release, but we had two options, like you suggest. We could take it out or leave it in until the package is fixed and all the nonfree software is taken out. The FSF clearly states that our only options is to take it out. In this regard our philosophy is exactly in line with the FSF's. If you are looking for a distro that advocates free software but will choose usability over freedom (i.e. that would leave the package in until the freedom work was finished), you should probably use Debian.

However, you are right that this sound issue should never have come up. If you buy hardware that uses free software, you should be able to use it using gNS. I'm not sure if this came up because (a) we found out about this package recently or because (b) the nonfree software in the package only got in the repos with the release of Ubuntu Hardy. If (a), I don't see what we could have done better. If (b), we should have done better pretesting. This might very well come up again with gNS 3.0, so we should probably do some serious freedom-verification work with all the new packages and changes that will come with the next version of Ubuntu.

Lastly, I'd just like to remind you (as I'm sure you know) that gNS is run by volunteers. Personally, I feel that because we are listed by the FSF site, we have a great responsibility to the community. Unfortunately, we just don't have enough people working on gNS as is necessary to fix everything that comes up. I really do think that we are doing the best we can to make a usable distro keeping as close as possible to the FSF's guidelines.

Thank you for promptly and professionally addressing my concerns. There are a lot of questions that I have about Free Software and it seems that with so few people currently working on things that my questions often take a while to get answered. I don't mind waiting, I just don't like feeling like I've been ran in circles and brushed off. I like the ideology of Free Software. I have gotten through about half of Free Software Free Society and plan to finish. The concepts illustrated are very interesting and seem so different and better than everything I've ever known about computers. I grew up loving computers and video games. As I've gotten older, I grew more and more frustrated at the inability to edit games, and the high prices for computer software. Also, the ideas of copyright as they are now seemed so harsh. I feel like I've discovered a whole new way of looking at computers with Free Software.

However, there is much work to be done before the Free Software Operating System is really user friendly. I know more about computers than most people I know in person who use Windows; but very little about computers compared to most of the people here. Something as simple as compiling a sound driver is not simple for me. To be honest, it took me a while to get basic use of Terminal going for me. This world works very different than the one I came from. Some things don't work out of the box. Some take about three to five steps to set up. Again, easy for people who have been working with this for years but confusing to those who haven't.

I had to use a manual for simple things like playing DVDs and listening to MP3s. Which I later learned how to convert MP3s to OGG. I had to learn how to find other programs rather than just trying to run everything I used to run through WINE. I slowly weened myself off Windows to Ubuntu then from Ubuntu to gNewSense. I switched to Ubuntu for the increased security a GNU Linux system has and for, "free as in beer." It was through research that I found out what, "Free as in Freedom," means and realized that Open Source does neglect the social and political values of Free Software.

At first it wasn't a hard switch to make. Almost everything that worked for me on Ubuntu worked just fine on gNewSense. So, I easily concluded to switch so I could be advocating Free Software. To be frank, the sound issue was the first thing that ever really blindsided me. It seems to have thrown a lot of the community into an upheaval and I felt like I got the raw end of the deal considering my hardware should have been supported. I also found out, as these things usually go, many others had the same problem I did.

I tried to get help patiently. But it became clear that the community, at first as least, was more concerned with fixing the module, to spite how long it takes, instead of hand holding each person through compiling a sound driver. I suppose with the numbers you have that it would be the best plan to go with. It just seems unfortunate that many users, myself included, are left in the dark, so to speak, for however many months this takes to fix.

I was becoming very excited about 2.0 and was waiting for it for a long time. Many of the games I wanted to play and programs I wanted to use seemed to rely more and more on updated c libraries and other updated things as well. Ubuntu marched onwards and gNewSense seems to have skipped version seven of Ubuntu. That's why I was so glad to hear that 2.0 would catch things up again.

I guess I felt frustrated, disheartened, confused, and left behind. No Ubuntu manual or community member is likely going to teach me how to fix something like this. And compiling is confusing. It's like the algebra problems in math. They give you one rule of thumb, then about seven rule of exceptions. There are more exceptions to the rule than the rule. Compiling anything seems to require a intimate knowledge of computing that I do not yet have and a different process, or exception, to get around new difficulties unique to each thing being compiled.

I'm assuming no one is going to hold me hand through this then. People send me off to guides that get me so far than everything grinds to a halt. I could keep asking for more and more help, but then I feel as though I am nagging and that's just irritating people who want to fix the module instead of helping me.

I have been told to reinstall then just not update. But, to the extent that many others point out, that's not furthering Free Software much more than just using Debian. I want to support the movement, but I also want a computer that works. I know you try your best to do this. Thank you for addressing the topics I brought up. I was wandering about those and it seemed as though many things were being miss matched that were not.

I do plan to become a Free Software Associate Member with my next paycheck on Thursday. I also plan to use only Free Software Systems once I do. However, and I don't mean this out of malice, I will probably be using Blag until gNewSense has purified this module. This way I am still supporting freedom and still using a 100% Free Software System. This is probably a lot easier than compiling a sound driver and I am getting used to Blag. It is probably best that I get used to the different systems so that I don't feel that I can only work under one. Many things are similar.

I just hope people continue on here at gNewSense with the professional and polite attitude that you have. Sometimes I felt like I was being left behind or belittled by some of the other forum members here for my lack of computer knowledge. As Free Software becomes known to more people, I will likely not be the last new person you get coming over here clueless from Windows and Ubuntu. Please treat us with respect because the future of Free Software is in our hands as much as yours.

Thank you again and have a nice day.

I can understand your frustration. I went through the same thing when I first switched to GNU/Linux and free software. Richard Stallman's writings are inspiring and describe an exciting vision of a freer society through free software, but the people who created (and continue to create) free software are not just tied together by this vision, but have a specific community and genealogy (i.e. the hacker community). There are great things about the hacker community, and there are good reasons why it is tied so closely to free software. However, hackerdom has its limitations. Generally, hackers write free software because they love to get inside the code and create or modify programs to meet their specific needs. Because writing documentation is not particularly intellectually stimulating or exciting, it tends to be ignored (as you can see from http://wiki.gnewsense.org/Documentation/Documentation.

Hackers tend to have the mindset that if you need to know something, you should figure it out yourself, or at least show that you have put a considerable amount of effort into figuring it out. This has worked well in the past, but as you have correctly pointed out, it will not best serve the community as free software becomes more mainstream. This may be why you have had posts that ended up being rather curt. If you're not already familiar with Eric Raymond's writing about hackers or the jargon file, you might want to look at www.catb.org/~esr/faqs and/or www.catb.org/jargon. I'd especially recommend "How to ask smart questions."

I'm glad you've decided to stick with free software. There's nothing wrong with BLAG, and it's good to get familiar with yum and rpm packaging as well as apt. However, if you do want to get your sound working, I have done my best to post step-by-step how I did it on the forum. If you run into any troubles, feel free to email me and I'll do the best I can to help you.

"gNewSense is the most powerful Free Software Operating System as far as horse power is concerned." --we aren't concerned about "power" at all; we are concerned about freedom.
"it is a purified version of Ubuntu. Which is considered the most user friendly and popular Desktop distribution of GNU Linux Operating Systems." --please don't speak for what others consider, let them speak for themselves.
"However, somewhere along the line, there formed a problem in gNewSense." --care to be more vague?
"The problem has become clear that gNewSense has taken it upon itself to decide what is Free Software and what is not." --nope.
"They clear in their rhetoric that the choices they make are universal in the Free Software movement and that the only reason that other systems have not fallowed suit is because they just haven't gotten around to fighting for freedom as fast as gNewSense has." --this is an example of clear and utter babbling; in your world of gumdrop houses and faery women w/daffodil sceptres, maybe.
"There are two problems here. The first is what seems to be a growing narcissism in the gNewSense community that they are somehow the forefront and pioneering Free Software Operating System that explores, upholds, and strives for freedom quicker and better than their peers." --you ought to take Haloperidol.
... for the readers of this forum, the entire post is nonsensical warped perversion; pay no attention to it. --cms

I'm wondering if part of the problem is the lack of information on the website telling people about gNS.

Eg, misconceptions that the site doesnt deal with, things that may no longer be correct, pages that would be helpful but are missing.

Perhaps those involved in the thread could post a few ideas for those pages?.

On the subject of free distributions - Firefox is not free software, so is actually a bug in BLAG (as is the glx libs in Xorg). The large(ish) amount of the firmware in ubuntu-linux-modules may be absent in blag, it depends if those are kernel modules removed by debian and reintroduced by ubuntu, or ubuntu specificly pulled in from 3rd parties.

Thanks, kk

Fine. I'll go back to Windows, not become an Associate Member, and Milk Free Software for all it's worth. From past experience, Free Software runs better on Proprietary systems because of the complete and utter lack of Free Software drivers. I try to stay optimistic but I'm tired of dealing with this. I been on here weeks trying to get my sound to work. Sound, you know, something Windows has had working for a good two decades and then some. Let's see, deal with pompous ingrates for about two to three weeks and get flack. Or, install a propitiatory driver and have sound in less than 30 seconds. I have given up 3D games because Free Software is too incompetent and poorly funded to develop 3D drivers. I have given up program like Game Maker because they are proprietary and thus against Free Software. I'm done, and I'm sick of this. Fairy land? You're living in the world of post 911 and the DMCA. You have a spirited leader with a heartless fallowing. Which is honestly no different than Mr. Gates. I can be treated like crap from Free Software or I can be treated like crap from Microsoft. The difference is that at the end of the day the Windows computer will play my DVDs, play my MP3s, play my video games, allow me to design video games, allow me to play flash games, and allow me to, at the same time, milk the fruits of your efforts to booth without paying a dime. So you can take your God damn Freedom to your grave because if this is what your public relations are then Microsoft has already gotten you people dead to rights anyway. Justice is bought in America, not won. And America will eventually try to make everyone subservient to it. I think post 911 makes that clear. Europe has already fallowed with the their copyright laws. So, fine, I'm done with this. You can all go back and play pretend like the average consumer, who believe me does decide your fate, goes on with the status quo. You're fighting a loosing war. The lawyers are rearranging the copyright laws, they're not going to get rid of them. As Microsoft, Sony, and other computer and media companies grow; they're going to slow and surely make your work as illegal as they can. They can't take away what you've won, easily. But that can, will, and are trying to do their best to make sure you don't gain another inch of ground. You're big enough to be on their radars now, but not mature enough to know how to deal with it. Your arrogance will cost you. Most consumers care about free price, not freedom. They'll continue to run your software of Windows because they can get sound and 3D. When fighting a loosing war, nice words and good public relations is really all you have.

If you don't win the hearts and minds of the public, this entire movement is going to fall on its own face. Then all of Stallman's work will either die when Windows takes over or Free Software becomes carried off by big business in the form of Open Source.

Windows will try to stop you.

The media will smear you as communists, pirates, and criminals.

They'll lock you out with implanted hardware chips.

And when push comes to shove your oh so precious knowledge of computers and hacking will be rendered useless by hardware restraints, new laws, and a public you failed to win.

Very few people know of you, outside of those who believe the smear words being dumped on you. And those that do know of you will no doubt be turned away by your attitude.

I was hoping to help the FSF with my donations and my words. But it is clear that I can use the software without contributing, and that my words are not enough to save you.

So have fun with this ill found freedom while it lasts.

I wasn't even asking for my sound to be fixed anymore. I just wanted people to see these problems and at least show some respect.

Fuck it.

Cry me a river. You don't have the decency to use a name on the forums so we can talk /to/ you. I asked you for some of the things that caused problems for you, community/documentation wise. you had (anther) petty rant (the contents of which I'll ignore here)

talk about cutting loose dead-weight.

This is how you talk down to people. That's what this community, if you can call it that, doesn't understand. People aren't going to put up with this shit.

Not one single average consumer is going to try for three weeks to get their sound working, being dumped on by the people who are supposed to be helping them for asking questions and demanding a response. And then get insulted for pointing out that your dumping on them for trying to get help.

This is where your movement is immature and will fail.

Windows makes computers easy. People don't care about Freedom. Or, to say it better; people care about getting their computers to work in an easy and fast way without putting up with jerks like you more than freedom.

Let's see, I can pay $100.00, less on ebay, for Windows XP and have my computer do everything I could ever want it to do in a matter of thirty seconds for setting up each new project with an installer that does all the crap work for me.

Or I can donate $120.00 a year and deal with people who don't respect me, who don't respect the general user, and have no concept of carrying on an intellectual argument by actually addressing the points at hand.

I'll say it again. I can be treated like crap by Free Software or I can be treated like crap be Microsoft. I can fallow the zealous Bill gates or fallow the zealous Richard Stallman. Really, they're not different. They're just two sides of the same coin. Yin and yang, if you will.

At the end of the day, the only real difference is that with Windows my computers actually works.

"I could ever want it to do in a matter of thirty seconds"

Umm, have you timed a Windows install lately? How about the long start up?

"the only real difference is that with Windows my computers actually works"

Until it crashes, gets a virus, gets hijacked, locks up, etc. etc. etc.

"Windows makes computers easy"

Then how come Windows, which has been around so long, still has millions of users who don't know how to use their own computers? Look on Google, you'll find thousands and thousands of pages of results of people asking how to do the absolute most basic things in Windows that are seriously trivially easy. Been in a tech support call center lately? All across the world people call in for help with Windows every single day, for stuff you wouldn't even believe.

Microsoft loves that they have enough muscle to force hardware and software makers into catering to their platform and their platform only. They revel int he fact that they got in early to the market and conditioned the minds, bodies and souls of millions of users, who are now so brainwashed they think anything different is hard...yet they still don't even know how to do most things in Windows.

I can completely understand your frustration in jot being able to get something to work mate, but I think you came here with a complete misunderstanding of what this project is all about, and how the computer/hardware/software world works.

I'm an FSF member, and have been treated with respect by everyone who I have encountered so far. But if you make false accusations, you can expect to catch some flack for it, so don't play the victim.

gNewSense is a young distro, and it, along with the FSF are up against much bigger obstacles than other distros. Gains and advances will come in incremental victories, not giant leaps, when you are fighting corporations, flawed idealogy, greed, and sheer apathy.

Do I think the FSF will win every fight it's up against? No, but I damn sure want to help them try. Your philosophy seems to be to just give in and submit, just roll over and take it. Microsoft has made billions off people with the same mindset.